Before I begin, I should mention that I’m only keeping up with one Doremi release at the moment, that being Binbou Shimai Monogatari. Ignoring the odd line here and there, I’ve been satisfied with the group’s work on the show. Still, I think DarkMirage’s criticism of their Mai-Otome DVD Special release is legitimate. Someone really dropped the ball there.
Anyway…
Why do I watch fansubs? Because I’m lazy, to be honest. My Japanese comprehension skills are decent enough, but even despite that, there are very few shows I can fully enjoy without the aid of any translation whatsoever. Some shows, I can manage well enough. Others, I’d be completely lost without subtitles. In the end, I only have time to watch any given episode once before moving on, so I find its simply more efficient to wait patiently for a fansub release than attempt to stay on top of a show as it airs in Japan. My schedule is wonky enough that, even if I were pulling episodes off Winny the day they aired, I wouldn’t have time to watch them for several more days to come. Fansubs suit my pace, it seems.
But, as much as I appreciate the work fansub groups are doing, I have to admit that I find the fansub community in general to be a pretty ugly place. It’s the stench of arrogance, I think. Visit just about any fansub group’s website and poke around their discussion forum, and you’ll see it plain as day…
“When will the next episode be released?”
“Shut up and go away. It’ll be released when it’s released.”
It’s no secret that fansub groups compete with each other. Not over quality of work, mind you - unless you consider annoying karaoke effects to be work befitting of honest criticism - but, rather, over eyeballs. The group that gets the most attention wins. Who has more people idling in their IRC channel? Who has the most active discussion forum? Who sees their name in lights most often? It’s a popularity contest, obviously.
So why, pray tell, are so many fansubbers such giant assholes most of the time? Why do they insist on reminding people to “not complain about something they got for free?” Why do they waste so much energy trashing the commercial anime industry - an industry that, for all basic purposes, is responsible for bringing anime fandom out of the shadows and into the mainstream? And why do fansub groupies bend over and take it with a smile? The moronic “Fansubs are better than DVDs!” talking point will never die, I fear.
Mind you, I don’t think the fansub scene is a lost cause. I’d argue that things have improved a good bit in recent years. The days of mega-groups subbing more shows than feasible are behind us, it seems. Fewer niche shows are falling through the cracks. There are still some good groups out there doing good work for all the right reasons.
On the other hand, I have to agree with DarkMirage: fansubbers aren’t doing what they claim to be doing. Are fansubbers (and their fans) so arrogant as to think the commercial anime industry would be lost without them? Or is that just an excuse?
Honesty counts, you know.
Well, my approach to your problem was taking three years of college Japanese, and now I can enjoy raw Japanese TV shows and light novels without waiting for fansubbers or translators.
That’s one solution, one that sadly requires too much time and effort to appeal to most people who bitch about the quality of fansubs and then sit on their hands. But hey, knowing Japanese looks good on your resume.
I guess some things change while others stay the same. All these years away from fansubbing and it seems nothing has changed. I remember leaving because of the general lack of maturity, but guess that hasn’t changed, either that or all the people who became more level-headed left as well. And yeah, it really was/is a popularity contest for some people (most). Though I still do remember the excitement of seeing my alias in the credits of a fansub that’s being watched by hundreds of people, but I’m still glad that I have nothing to do with it now.
As I have said before, I don’t think fansubbing is the horrible horrible thing some people make it out to be. I and many others would not purchase anywhere near the volume of anime (and associated products) that we do without fansubbing.
This doesn’t mean that there aren’t people who download them (and straight up local region DVD rips) because they are free, there are certainly many of them, probably considerably more than people who are (at least somewhat) honest about it and legally purchase DVDs after the fact.
However, I also think the audience of people that are in the ‘because its free’ crowd would never be reached by anime companies no matter what they do, at least for the vast majority of them. These people tend to have no qualms whatsoever about stealing when it comes to anything downloaded. They would rather do without than spend money on anime for the most part.
That is why I think that, for the most part, fansubs are a good thing. They expose people to a large variety of shows, some of which will become available for purchase on DVD in their country. The legitimate anime fan will likely buy at least some of them (probably just their favourites of course) while the illegitimate fan will buy nothing.
Now would the anime industry be lost without fansubs? No, of course not. There will always be people who will buy things sight unseen, TV and the internet will push shows to people as well.
Is it hurt by fansubs? Im sure they are to some degree, it is however virtually impossible to quantify monetarily. You simply cannot link every downloaded disc to a lost sale. Its a nice figure to work with, but the real world doesn’t work that way.
Is it helped by fansubs? In my opinion, without a doubt.
I’ve been a leecher of fansubs for a long while, before I joined a fansub group and started working on fansubs. So I’ve been on both sides of the “When is it coming out” question, asking and answering.
On the one hand, I do agree that a lot of fansubbers are quite uptight about the rule against people asking when new releases arrive… there are several times when a fansub group is the only group subbing a show, and they’re stalled weeks or months. Those times, I do agree that a status update would be good.
The flipside though… a single fansub group has a lot of people just watching their series. The same question can get asked over and over and over again, which can get horribly irritating. A lot of times, forums or channels without a rule against asking will end up seeing a “when is the new release coming out” question about half a dozen times a day. Some fansub groups just feel justified with a preemptive rudeness, since one of these half dozen asks will probably be a “HURRY UP!!!111 zomg”.
‘Course, I think an easy solution would be if the fansubbers offered a frequent update on their website/forum/channel or whatever. Just a line going: “Episode 5 status: Being Timed. ETA: Friday”…
Since I get most of my subs from Korean sources, I am somewhat surprised at the existence of fansub groups and how they get along with other fans. In Korea, most subs are works of individual who uses form like ‘.smi’ files that will overlay text onto the screen. I have thought that there are subtitle generators that wasn’t hard to use, and more time goes to getting the timing and translations correct instead of using the programs. Many individuals cranks out a subtitle file with about 2 to 3 hour work for a normal 23 minute episode. The interesting thing is most English group releases the whole subtitle within the video itself, which I believe would require larger amount of work, compared to Korea where people gets raw and subtitle from separate sources. I wonder if this is to work around a copy-right law or it just that there aren’t as many English source for the raw compared to Korean sources which could only be used by someone with good knowledge of Korean. Actually, most of my downloads use direct download from a file-sharing site instead of Bit-Torrents as well. I guess I am having difficulties comprehending the situation here so here are some questions to help me understand.
1. Why don’t those groups release the subtitles first? Is it because the commonly available raws in Korea and Japan has codec that is incompatible with Window Media player? Is it because commonly available video players in English can’t handle subtitle files? The video player I use is available in English as well, but is there a reason why most people avoids them? ( http://www.free-codecs.com/download/Gom_Player.htm )
2. Why does it take so much man power to create Fan-subs in English, when I know many Korean Bloggers who generates one after breakfast before going to school? Is it more of lack of people who understands Japanese? Why does it have to take much coding and program manipulations to generate subtitles?
3. I have very seldom seen someone making direct request for fansubs in blogs of those fan-subbers. Why is it different here? Is it the knowledge that there won’t be someone else to do the job? Is it because there are more people who can do fansubs in Korea? Why does it have to be when there are 10 times more people speaking English compared to Korea? It is morefascinating when you consider West’s infatuation with anything Japanese and public distaste for anything Japanese in Korean Society.
4. Why does it take so much money to maintain a site for a fan-sub? Even if a 100 people downloads it per day, a subtitle file is typically about 20 KB in size, so that should be only 2MB of traffic per day or am I missing something?
( example: http://gom.ipop.co.kr/jmdb/view.html?intSeq=261291&page=1&preface=1 )
5. Are there some Fan-sub groups hoping to create a monopoly or something?
Okay, lots of questions, Jeff. I’ll take a stab at that. Having been a l33ch for a year before I went into the evil fansubbing world myself. Therefore, I’ve seen it from both sides.
> But, as much as I appreciate the work fansub groups are doing, [...]
Oh really? Your words are literally dripping of appreciation…
> I have to admit that I find the fansub community in general to be a
> pretty ugly place. It’s the stench of arrogance, I think.
It’s a nasty jungle indeed. Alot of ego and arrogance going round among
the fansubbers, and at least equally as much vicious-lazy perception of
entitlement from the leechers. And usually, it’s always the others’ fault.
> “When will the next episode be released?”
> “Shut up and go away. It’ll be released when it’s released.”
Let me share an experience with you. I’ve got the motto to always politely
answer this question if it is posed in a polite way. On release days, this
means that you will answer this question ~10 times in the channel (when
you’re done and only uploading the final versions, so you’ve got spare time).
Nevertheless, there are always leeches who are NEVER content, no matter
what. So, expect 2-3 questions to be less than polite. Like on this one day
when 3 people in sequence were going “WHY ISNT F/SN 16 OUT YET???”,
and you do start to lose your temper and gain a strange understanding for
fansubbers who categorically REFUSE to answer it anymore.
Especially when this yelling happened 15 hours after the episode aired on
Japanese TV.
> Why do they insist on reminding people to “not complain about
> something they got for free?”
Because that’s the way it is. Most fansubbers don’t resent constructive
criticism, but when they approach the fansubbers with this air of “I’m
the customer and king, serve me NOW and stop to stall and suck”, you
don’t need to expect polite replies. After a while, even the most patient
fansubber gets sick of this. The fans are entitled to NOTHING. The fansubbers
present a voluntary gift to the fans. The fans may accept or reject it, and
good fansubbers will appreciate constructive criticism, but fans are not in
a position to DEMAND anything. Unfortunately, many unpleasant people do.
> Why do they waste so much energy trashing the commercial anime industry
That’s not how it happens. Debates like these are pretty much ALWAYS ignited
by some smart aleck forum warrior or frustrated blogger who starts another big
tirade how much the evil fansubber pirates hurt the industry. And more often
than you’d think you’ll see these very same people in your channel a few
minutes later, clamoring for your latest release.
I can tell you that this is extremely irritating to people like me. So excuse
my lacking patience causing me to oppose this kind of venomous hypocrisy.
> an industry that, for all basic purposes, is responsible for bringing anime
> fandom out of the shadows and into the mainstream?
*lol* You really think that? ^_^
The commercial anime industry in America has been completely irrelevant for
my exposure to anime, my taking up the hobby and my pursuing it actively.
They have been receiving my money for the products I considered worth it.
But the english-speaking anime world was not created by ADV. It was created
and by the invention of the digisubs and is maintained by the distribution
power of the internet, which is giving us access to the _real_ anime scene,
which is the TV-based anime world of Japan. You cannot be an anime fan
just based on the commercial world unless you’re swimming in wealth.
Even in the best case, having kids shelling out 50$ of their allowance per
month will gain them ~3-4 hours or 6-8 episodes of anime per month. Good
luck staying an anime fan like this.
> And why do fansub groupies bend over and take it with a smile?
May I use an expletive here, for clarity’s sake? Because most people actually
ARE thankful that fansubbers invest countless hours of their spare time to
make new anime available to them. The (censored) (censored) who take our
work and still insult, abuse and deride us for it are what fansubbers call
“collateral damage”. I’d love to exclude ungrateful people like you from having
access to the fruits of my labor. Unfortunately, I cannot.
> There are still some good groups out there doing good work for all the
> right reasons.
Now I’m curious. Who are those groups? And what are the “right reasons”?
> fansubbers aren’t doing what they claim to be doing.
I’ve never heard a fansubber making claims to what he’s doing. It’s implicitly
clear though. He’s usually trying to translate japanese anime to other
languages to make the show available to other fans. Some succeed more,
some succeed less, depending on their skills. All of them deserve appreciation.
> Are fansubbers (and their fans) so arrogant as to think the commercial anime
> industry would be lost without them?
Most fansubbers and anime fans simply don’t care about the commercial anime
industry at all. Tomorrow ADV and Bandai could go bankrupt and I wouldn’t care.
The _only_ indirect reason why it would be relevant is that anime licences indeed
do pay a few of the original artists’ salaries to create new anime. This is why I spend
a sizable portion of my income for anime goods. Nevertheless, the anime world
on the internet is hardly affected by the non-japanese commercial industry.
It would have a bigger impact for the anime world to see places like Animesuki,
Tokyotosho or Point-Blank going down than seeing ADV go out of business.
> Honesty counts, you know.
Indeed. Please remember your words the next time you download and watch
anime from these accursed arrogant uncaring fansubbers.
But the english-speaking anime world was not created by ADV. It was created
and by the invention of the digisubs and is maintained by the distribution
power of the internet, which is giving us access to the _real_ anime scene,
which is the TV-based anime world of Japan. You cannot be an anime fan
just based on the commercial world unless you’re swimming in wealth.
Even in the best case, having kids shelling out 50$ of their allowance per
month will gain them ~3-4 hours or 6-8 episodes of anime per month. Good
luck staying an anime fan like this.
So…wrong. Choke full of elitism.
1. I agree that the English-speaking fan scene is reliant on fansubs in general, but that’s neglecting a huge amount of people who are not. People like you are in a very, very small minority compared to the rest of the English-speaking, anime-buying, non-fansub-watching world.
2. Digisubbing is something that benefited the rest of the world more than it benefited America, IMO. Kind of an aside.
3. You could say that fansubbing today bridges a gap for fans like you and me, who chases after the Japan scene and keep up with the latest happenings. But, again, that’s %-wise a small amount of people who’d expend so much effort to do so, versus those who do not.
4. I think the venomous hypocrisy you referred all flow from the same source, and it’s showing teeth right here.
5. If you can get access to Adult Swim and watch/become fans of all the anime it shows, I’d say you’re an anime fan ‘enough’. The average anime con goer, for example, probably squarely fit into that category. If they’re young enough, they probably have read as much in manga as they have seen anime series title-wise. For a lot of kids with no money, that’s not a lot to ask. That’s on top of netflix and borrowing anime from other people.
6. And lastly, fansubbers don’t deserve anything nor are they entitled to anything either, no more than the average leechers. That’s what makes them respectable–doing work, for free, and not for their own benefit. If you think deserves respect for your work, you might want to start working on something that is legally recognizable as something that can be respected.
I’m not going to talk about others things since I have done that too many times already, but just a little about dvds. When American anime company release something that I actually like (not mainstream stuff), even if I would have all the money to buy everything it simple isn’t possible. Most releases here are years old shows and sometimes poorly translated too. And officially I’m not allowed to watch American dvds, region codes anyone? Yes, I’m a pirate and I don’t have any right watch everything for free. But do I care? Not really.
Heh… behind you all the way Mentar….
Omo: Some responses.
> 1. I agree that the English-speaking fan scene is reliant on fansubs in general,
> but that’s neglecting a huge amount of people who are not. People like you are
> in a very, very small minority compared to the rest of the English-speaking,
> anime-buying, non-fansub-watching world.
That’s called a self-fulfilling prophecy. Since you seem to reduce the anime world to
the “non-fansub-watching world”, you are indeed correct that those are not relying
on fansubs. Which gives you a major “duh” and the pineapple of the day award.
> 2. Digisubbing is something that benefited the rest of the world more than it
> benefited America, IMO. Kind of an aside.
Really? The vast majority of downloads are from there. But okay - since I’m no
American, I’ve got to admit that I don’t really care.
> 3. You could say that fansubbing today bridges a gap for fans like you and me,
> who chases after the Japan scene and keep up with the latest happenings. But,
> again, that’s %-wise a small amount of people who’d expend so much effort to
> do so, versus those who do not.
Look at the internet and try to find the representation of this group. I don’t see
any well-visited places which represent the non-fansub anime scene. Look at the
blogworld where we’re in. It’s rare that anything gets coverage about for example
which new R1 releases came out. We’re all talking about the Japanese scene,
and if talk is about DVDs, it’s usually about the R2s coming out.
I’m not saying that an anime scene apart from fansubs doesn’t exist. Of course
it does. But those people are BY DEFINITION not affected by fansubs and thus
the industry isn’t “harmed” by those evil pirates.
> 4. I think the venomous hypocrisy you referred all flow from the same source,
> and it’s showing teeth right here.
A null comment. In which way am I hypocritical? I’m defending the fansubbers
against the same old fairy tales, and the discussion was kicked off by their
enemies. Not the fansubbers.
> 5. If you can get access to Adult Swim and watch/become fans of all the anime
> it shows, I’d say you’re an anime fan ‘enough’. [...]
Yes, sure. I wouldn’t want to deprive people like these from “anime fan” status.
But again, those who aren’t part of the internet anime world are not affected
by fansubs. Therefore, the talk about them seems irrelevant to me for the
issues on hand.
> 6. And lastly, fansubbers don’t deserve anything nor are they entitled to
> anything either, no more than the average leechers.
Of course they are. Fansubbers are investing time and effort to create something
which the leechers consume. The net is a free place, and you can be a selfish
bastard just fine if you want to be. You can call someone a lousy pirate and then
laugh, take his encodes and sell them on eBay. My point is that in MY understanding
of proper manners, whoever invests some time to fansub for others deserves
respect for that. Not the rearkissing kind, but people who do NOT contribute to
the anime world should at least show politeness and shouldn’t diss them. In MY
understanding you at least shouldn’t bite the hand which feeds you. If YOUR
understanding is different: More power to you.
Look at the forums and blogs: In 90% of the cases it’s smart alecks and leechers
who start flamewars like that. It’s rare that fansubbers waste their time trolling
for this, because they know from painful experience that it’s a waste of time.
Like this exchange here. Guess I’m stupid after all.
You cannot be an anime fan
just based on the commercial world unless you’re swimming in wealth.
Even in the best case, having kids shelling out 50$ of their allowance per
month will gain them ~3-4 hours or 6-8 episodes of anime per month. Good
luck staying an anime fan like this.
Now that Netflix is well-stocked, you can shell out only about $20/month and have more anime in your mailbox than would be healthy to watch (three to four DVDs a week). That leaves you money left over to buy a DVD or two each month, as well.
When I remember the old days when fansubs meant sending a fat yellow envelope with VHS tapes in it through snail mail, the world opened up by fansubbing is nothing short of nirvana. It amazes me that we live in a world where after a series airs an ocean away, you can have a group of people on different continents work together and put out a translation for free, just for the love of anime–and for that I’m very grateful. I think the majority of fans are like that, awed by the work that’s done on their behalf for the love of anime, a medium that’s simply the best form of storytelling ever created. And I think most fansubbers are true anime fans, so enthused by anime that that enthusiasm drives them to spend countless hours, in front of computers all around the world, making anime accessible to thousands who in many cases would never be able to enjoy it otherwise.
While I don’t think the anime industry would die without fansubbers, I can say most of my 200 DVDs I bought because I liked the series when I saw it fansubbed. Realistically I’d have just rented them first on Netflix if fansubbers didn’t exist, but I appreciate that thanks to fansubs I don’t have to wait a year plus for DVDs to start coming out and I can be part of the global anime community, all watching the same thing at the same time as fellow fans in Japan and the rest of the world.
Having said that, I think there are a lot of both fansubbers and fans who have a pretty poor attitude about fansubbing. There are fans who think everything should be subbed 5 minutes after it airs in Japan, the font should be X, this character’s name should be spelled exactly the way they think it should be even though they wouldn’t know katakana if it fell on them, they think people who actually buy DVDs are suckers, and they ask on IRC every other minute why they have to wait for something they’re getting for free. Annoying, yes. Should these people be set on fire and banned from IRC for life? Sure. But this is NOT a majority of fans. If there was a way to block them, it’d be great, but as is usually the case in life you have to take the good with the bad.
There are also some fansubbers who think no matter what they do they should be immune from criticism and worshipped as gods, and treat their fans as the worthless “leechers” they perceive them as, instead of as fellow anime fans. It’s nice to think “since it’s free everyone should shut up and admire my l33t skillz”, but the real world doesn’t work like that–any work you do in a public sphere, if you screw up, someone will call you on it, maybe politely and maybe not. If you write fanfiction, someone will always think it sucks. If you’re an artist, someone will always think your work sucks. If you work for a Fortune 500 company, there will always be someone who thinks you did X wrong on project Y. The point is, it’s human nature to be offended by ANY criticism, especially when you know the criticism itself is flat-out wrong, but being able to tolerate criticism is a skill everyone needs to get through life, unless you’re a hermit. Psychologists have done studies showing if people receive an equal amount of criticism and praise at work, they will perceive that they have been criticized twice as often as praised. Criticism stings more than praise feels good, I guess, but if you don’t want the criticism, restrict your IRC channel to just members of your group. I do NOT think the majority of fansubbers have this attitude, I have to believe most are motivated by the love of anime and wanting to share it with their fellow fans, and I’m sure it’s as frustrating for them to get tarred with the same brush as the more obnoxious ones as it is for fans who appreciate fansubbers and seed as long as they can to get lumped in with “ungrateful leechers”.
I guess if this ramble has a point, it’s that some fans and fansubbers alike set a bad example and have some growing up to do–but I don’t for a second think they’re a majority. Most fansubbers toil for hours for the sheer love of anime, if they make a mistake they will want to know so they can be closer to perfect next time, and are civil to fans. And I think most fans geniunely appreciate the work fansubbers do and are loyal to groups whose work they admire.
dm: Point taken. I’m not advocating _against_ buying anime DVDs, not at all. Heck, most anime fans (yes, the same evil pirates and fansub leechers) I know spend more cash on anime than what’s healthy for them, be it DVDs, OSTs, manga or whatever merchandise comes up. But in MY experience those tend to be the shows who first had interest generated by either TV (primary enabler) or fansubs (secondary enabler). Not the result of interest generated by American anime DVD distribution labels.
I think you’re a good guy, Mentar, but your original comment kind of proves my point.
The whole “fansubber” vs. “leecher” dichotomy illustrates what I’m getting at. For all their whining about ungrateful leechers, fansubbers sure are happy to see those leechers filling their IRC channel and downloading their work. There will always be annoying fans to deal with - that’s the nature of fandom - but just because a “leecher” doesn’t bend down and kiss your feet every time you release something doesn’t mean they don’t appreciate what you’re doing. Only an arrogant fool would make that sort of demand. Climb down off your pedestal for a moment and try to remember what it’s like to be an anime fan.
As a blogger, I recognize that I’m an opinion maker. I know for a fact that I was instrumental in getting at least a few people to watch Simoun, and as a fan of the show, that makes me happy. But I don’t sit back afterwards, all smugly satisfied, thinking, “Man, I really did Bandai Visual a favor there!” I honestly get the feeling, however, that a lot of fansubbers see themselves as the official advance marketing team for every new show that comes out of Japan. Fansubbers no doubt play an important role in promoting certain shows, but let’s get real: the days of guys keeping the fire stoked by trading fourth-generation VHS tapes at anime club meetings are behind us. Yet, fansubbers cling to the notion that they’re the honorable defenders of a forgotten art form. The fact that digisubs are traded in bulk on the internet and the fact you can walk into your neighborhood Best Buy to find more anime than there is shelf space is irrelevant, I guess.
Jeff, it all boils down to this: You cast the first stone and made alot of very insulting remarks towards fansubbers in general. The whole thread obviously originated from a blogger entry in which a fansubbing group which I happen to know a bit was attacked and dissed in the rudest way I’ve seen in a long time, also (incorrectly and unfairly) extrapolating alot of extremely insulting allegations towards the people working there. You were asking alot of rhetorical questions, and I took the liberty to answer them for you - just not how you obviously intended to see them answered.
I’m not easy to anger, Jeff. Your smug comments successfully blew my lid. That’s where we are now. I’m VERY angry. Because as much as you try to construe my response as the “typical response of an arrogant fansubber”, I can say that your initial tirade was the epitome of what causes fansubbers to simply “arrogantly” black out and ignore with growing experience. It’s the extremely vexing mix of hypocritical ungratefulness paired with a lack of insider knowledge.
In a way I’m wondering why I’m involving myself in this. I’m in the lucky position that the releases I work on tend to be received in a very friendly way. The fans in the group channels I’m in show their appreciation, which is one of the factors which keep me working on. I usually work with year-long veterans of the fansubbing scene, so that I almost never get serious negative feedback about our glitches which slip through. And yet, I can’t remember a single veteran fansubber who does NOT develop this “damn leeches” syndrome. Until yesterday I thought that I was an exception. Now I realized that I’m not.
So does this mean that all fansubbers have a personality defect? Are they all ego-driven e-penis-worshipping arrogant bastards, unable to take criticism and all the likes? Or might there be other factors at work here? Ever looked at it this way?
The examples I’ve given above should give you some food for thoughts. Don’t forget that there are tens of thousands of downloaders, but probably less than a hundred really active fansubbers. In my experience, the majority of fans are nice people, in my personal opinion, 30% are truly great, 40% are okay and 28% are tolerable… but those 2% are still _thousands_. And they WILL find you and ruin your day, trust me.
Now imagine you’re one of the fansubbers working with less than perfect assets. You may have no japanese TLchecker. Your timer may be a newbie. Your Typesetter may be missing, and his replacement can’t deal with moving signs. The encoder may have difficulties too. Still, you’re trying to do your best, because you like this show. And you know some of the folks in your group channel are eagerly waiting for it.
And then, the backlash sets in. Experienced fansubbing peers might rip your release apart for a multitude of reasons, some justified, some not. The same cackling people who diss you elsewhere suddenly show up in your channel to get the episodes from your bots anyway. And to top it off, maybe some smart blogger goes on a little crusade, embarrassing you extra. And once more you ask yourself why the hell you’re doing this. The answer is, for the 30-70% of the good people. The annoying 2% of know-it-alls and lecturers are part of the occupational hazard you have to learn to tolerate - or you won’t last long. And trust me, Jeff: It’s so much easier to just blog around or encode small (admittedly funny) clips. That’s stuff you can do on your own. Fansubbing usually takes a team of 5 people in which you have to make do with what you have at your disposal. It’s a much more difficult ballgame.
In a nutshell, the veteran fansubbers are formed by the realities out there. I’ve experienced it myself. In a way, I had the perfect circumstances to start with: Adult in the late thirties, secure in my own encoding abilities, working together with great people with alot of experience, getting pretty much glowing reviews and feedback for what I do. As I said, I _do_ answer questions when releases are out, because I can. I do listen to criticism and I do NOT consider leechers annoying nuisances. Can’t get any better. But even I had to find out yesterday that I have developed the “fansubber mindset”, which is EXTREMELY sensitive to unjustified criticism, the difficult-to-tolerate demanding mindset of the 2% consumers, and ESPECIALLY the glaring hypocrisy to have the very same people who snub their noses at you and put you down as arrogant pirates then line up in your channel to get YOUR work, and PRONTO!
Flatly put, most of the fansubbing people I’ve seen do not DESERVE this kind of ungrateful s**t they have to deal with, but they are exposed to again and again. Doremi deserved criticism for the bad template they used for the show, but they did NOT deserve this horrifying lynchmob-style dissing which accompanied it. Show me ONE place where fansubbers go and demand that people worship them. I show you TEN places where hypocrites roam and put fansubbers down in an extremely annoying generalizing way, just before they go and download and watch the works you’ve created in countless hours of your own time. That bites, Jeff. It really does.
Consider fansubbers cooks who spend alot of their spare time to create meals to hungry people out there. Their food is stolen, but for many people it’s the only way to get this kind of food, at least for the time being. You like to cook, and you’re trying your best. Most people like it. Many people may come and tell you that some more salt or pepper would be fine (not all of them agree which). Sometimes, people come up and point out a mistake you made, and you’re angry with yourself not to have caught it. Sometimes, people come up and insult you over an error, and you’re getting angry at THEM for being so rude about it. Sometimes people come up to point at the people around your pot, and they laugh that your cooking sucks and that you’re all incompetent. But the worst lot of them all are the 2%. They tell you that your cooking sucks, that you’re arrogant bastards for not reacting too kindly to this kind of feedback, and to top it off that you’re harming those you stole the food from, you thoughtless bums.
Then they will enter the queue to your pot and demand to get their share of your food.
Congratulations.
And thank you very much.
Some points for Mentar
Look at the internet and try to find the representation of this group. I don’t see
any well-visited places which represent the non-fansub anime scene.
ANN forums. AN forums. AoDVD. All have a lot of fansub viewers and “lite”/non-fansub viewers. Or even Cartoon Network’s “forums.” Of course it’s a biased way to pose the question since digisub followers tend to socialize online in these places, too; and they tend to abandon traditional venues like the non-insignificant amount of people that buy Animerica and Newtype USA, and write to the editors.
Go to a con. Go poll some people. Get a better cross-sampling of what fans are like. If we can call them and us as fans, then fansubs serves mostly us and very little for them.
My point is that in MY understanding of proper manners, whoever invests some time to fansub for others deserves respect for that.
My understanding of proper manners for fansubbers is that they should “shut up and work.” People in criminal enterprises shouldn’t champion their work around as if they deserve the recognition of the labor they put in. Of course, in the US it isn’t criminal, but in some other countries it is. I don’t know where you live but I hope that is not the case for you.
If you are going to go by “manners” does that mean you actively ask for permission to fansub what you are working on? That might be beyond the call of duty but it’s something people do still even today.
More realistically people just don’t like to respect mouthy hypocrite bastards. Don’t pretend to be one if you aren’t. If you do a good job putting out fansubs, people will naturally respect that. People who don’t aren’t going to anyways, so screw them and don’t let them bother you.
Legitimizing the enterprise of fansubbing invariably is an act of hypocrisy in the face of law. While I think morally it is perfectly acceptable to be fansubbing, it has to be done for the right reasons and not the wrong reasons. That’s all. If you buy into the hypocrisy, then it’ll flow out just like how it did before.
Like this exchange here. Guess I’m stupid after all.
You know how it is. It takes 2 to tango and I love to dance?
I’m not easy to anger, Jeff. Your smug comments successfully blew my lid. That’s where we are now. I’m VERY angry.
Obviously. If you can’t handle that sort of criticism, however, perhaps you should look into finding a new hobby. Or just keep suffering the slings and arrows of us ungrateful leechers. Whatever floats your boat.
I’ll make that short and sweet.
Omo: It’s not the fansubbers who insist that what they’re doing is legal. It isn’t. Heck, even watching raw anime is illegal, because it violates the copyright of the japanese studio. No, most fansubbers are relatively honest in this aspect, at least I am. The hypocrites are those who watch the raws or fansubs the evil pirates are creating, and then point accusing fingers at them :)
Jeff: *shrug* I’m relatively scot-free in this aspect. I only tried to explain to you what causes originally “normal” people to turn into the uncaring arrogant bastards which you so decry. Obviously, this failed to leave an impression on you. Too bad. I’m sure that _I_ can live with these kind of lice in my fur. I’m just a bit disillusioned about it. Oh, and congrats for making the 2%.
May I please get an answer to one of my question? My key question is when we are talking about Fan sub, are we talking about 25 KB English subtitle files for the Raw or 250 MB video file that has English Sub-title embedded in it? If it is the latter, what is preventing the English community from using the much easier to create separate subtitle format?
Whoops, I didn’t see your note - maybe it popped up after moderation?
I’ll try to answer them:
1) The subtitle formats used for modern encodes aren’t .SMI, but .SSA/ASS and sometimes .SRT. The “problem” with those pure softsubs are twofold: First, it’s not always clear to which raw they are timed. Since not all raws are identical (and some significantly deviate, for example with or without sponsor screens), it’s not clear which softsubs would fit to which raw. Secondly, many fans wouldn’t know how to play back external subtitles, since they would require special software for that. Here, hardcoded subs are much easier to handle.
2) Good question. From my experience, asian subs tend not to typeset signs in the video, for example. Also, they’re usually taking a more relaxed approach to timing the subtitles (which alone can take 2 hours if you’re shooting for perfection). QC is also more commonplace in english releases. Generally it would be possible to do it the same way - it depends on what kind of result you’re striving for.
3) No idea, sorry
4) We’re entering “depends” territory now. A simple website is easy to maintain, but english fansub groups tend to distribute _encodes_ of 170-230 megabyte per episode. Imagine several thousand downloads of that via bots, and you’d quickly accumulate serious traffic. However, I dislike nagging for donations to pay for bots. Taking any form of monetary compensation is a ticklish issue, and my position there is “don’t take any at all” there. That’s just MY opinion though, and some disagree
5) Naaah :) … that would be completely impossible to do.
ROFL… funniest s**t i’ve read in while… Mentar you are my new hero…heh Jeff and DarkMirage though are not nearly as bad as Answerman on ANN….he’s a deaf SOB who only hears what he wants…I believe him to be the king of anti-fansubbers and really gets on my nerve….
My understanding of proper manners for fansubbers is that they should “shut up and work.” People in criminal enterprises shouldn’t champion their work around as if they deserve the recognition of the labor they put in. Of course, in the US it isn’t criminal, but in some other countries it is. I don’t know where you live but I hope that is not the case for you.
If you are going to go by “manners” does that mean you actively ask for permission to fansub what you are working on? That might be beyond the call of duty but it’s something people do still even today.
Warning: fansubbing ethics detected!
Yes, fansubbing is highly criminal in the US, and also in all countries that have laws that implements the regulations of the Berne convention. (Yes, infamous pirate nests like Sweden too. The Swedish piracy haven is caused by a combination of strong online privacy laws and low punishments for copyright violations.)
In any case (and this can’t be stated enough, it seems): FANSUBS ARE WAREZ. All fansubbers are pirates. All leechers are pirates. No, that your alleged goal is to “support the american licensing industry” doesn’t help. You are still a WAREZ PIRATE, a FILTHY THIEF, a VIOLATOR OF INTERNATIONAL COPYRIGHTS etc. etc.. There are lots of dirty names to call people like us.
Now, I’m a fansubber, and I don’t have any problems whatsoever with this. The reasons are a very long and complicated story that involves lots of Real World politics and Serious Business, so I won’t go into them here, but the gist of it is that the people who claim to be fansubbing only to help the industry are the most annoying hypocrites of them all.
Speaking of hypocrisy, everyone involved in creating or watching fansubs (myself naturally included) is a hypocrite in one way or another.
The moronic “Fansubs are better than DVDs!” talking point will never die, I fear.
I’d say that’s because it holds small grains of truth. :)
bringing anime fandom out of the shadows and into the mainstream
DO NOT WANT
I’m a reclusive geek and I like to remain so. Anime is already annoyingly mainstream. Fortunately I think the current situation is something of a fad, hopefully it will fade back into a comfortable level of obscureness in the coming years…
Are fansubbers (and their fans) so arrogant as to think the commercial anime industry would be lost without them?
No, the (mis-?)conception that fansubs benefit the industry seems to be much more common among fansub watchers than among the fansubbers themselves, for some reason (I’d guess that it’s mostly Morally Upstanding people who doesn’t like “piracy” who want an excuse to download, but that’s just baseless prejudice). Among fansubbers (at least the ones I know (no, I don’t know any of the highly ethical people that like to hang around on ETG and spew hate on the Rizon “warezsubbers”)), the consensus seems to be that it’s very hard to tell the effect on the (US) industry, but if there’s any effect at all, it probably does hurt sales. Many (most, in fact) fansubbers I know, even the ones who obediently drop shows as soon as they get licensed in the US, accept this.
Now. What was the point, again? I think it might be this: what Jeff does in his post is noting the worst parts of the fansubber community, throwing them together in a mix, and then pointing and shouting “LOOK AT ALL THE EVIL PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING NASTY!”. Not that you don’t have points, and good points at that, but the picture you are painting is severely skewed, and I can certainly understand why Mentar is so upset.
I think it might be this: what Jeff does in his post is noting the worst parts of the fansubber community, throwing them together in a mix, and then pointing and shouting “LOOK AT ALL THE EVIL PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING NASTY!”.
Well, that’s what I was trying to spotlight, after all. Even so, I think I took care not to paint with too broad a brush. Like I said, “There are still some good groups out there doing good work for all the right reasons.” If I didn’t honestly believe that, I probably wouldn’t have wasted my time on the topic.
I know a number of ex-fansubbers personally, and when this topic comes up in conversation, they usually have worse things to say about their fansubber brethren than they do the leechers. Of course, they are EX-fansubbers, but even so, I rarely get the feeling they have an axe to grind. They’re mature, intelligent people who put a lot of time and effort into fansubbing, yet eventually grew disillusioned with the entire community. They bitch plenty about the leechers, no doubt, but they’re pretty clear about their feelings regarding fansubbers. Right now, Mentar is disillusioned with me and my 2%, but in a few years, he may feel differently. I hope we’ll still be on speaking terms. :-)
That said, I sometimes wonder if it’s a lost cause. For every giant, ego-driven fansub group that fractures, another one (or two) pops up to take its place. There are small, fan-oriented groups that have been chugging away for years doing good work, but when the scene is dominated by the “EVIL PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING NASTY” (or whatever), it indeed casts the entire community in a negative light. A little bit of effective PR could go a long way, but, as I’ve argued in the past, anime fans don’t do PR all that well.
So who ARE the good groups, and what are the right reasons they work for, after all? I’d certainly like to know that, because I honestly have no idea.
(That should also answer the speaking terms :-P)
Obviously, I can’t put together an exhaustive list, but a few that come to mind: Hikari no Kiseki, The Triad, A.F.K., Yu, countless groups that pop up for the sole purpose of subbing a single show… you get the idea. There are more, obviously. Groups come and go so much nowadays that it’s hard to keep up.
As for the “right reasons”, I think it’s simplest to say, “fansubbing for the sake of fandom,” rather than “fansubbing for the sake of fansubbing.” I don’t know if niche shows deserve to be subbed more than licensing bait - I watch plenty of both, after all - but I’ll admit to having a little more respect for groups that sub lesser known titles. When a big group with a huge staff takes on a bunch of popular shows, I often get the feeling they’re only doing so simply because they can. In other words, fansubbing for the sake of fansubbing.
I appreciate it when a group has a “mission”, so to speak. Perhaps they only sub shows of a certain genre. Perhaps they stick to a certain franchise. Perhaps they stick to shows no one cares about. “Sub as much as possible, as fast as possible,” however, doesn’t strike me as a worthwhile mission.
By the way, I’m not implying that Doremi is that sort of group.
Heh, another guy who thinks his words are so important, so he writes entries with his all-knowing mind.
Here’s what I think the problem with fansubbers is: They need to take Social Analytical/Critical Thinking classes.
As it’s a required class to leave this school, I just enrolled in one yesterday. From the class summary, it looks like I won’t really learn anything from it, as I already know what they’re trying to teach. However, some fansubbers might learn from it.
What do I mean? Well… it seems one of the ultimate goals of the class is to get people to understand other people’s reasons and actions, and let them impact your own.
How is this relevant? Well, how many times have you thought “When is episode x of x coming out?” How many times were you impatient for a certain series you love, and was wondering why it was taking longer than usual? How many times were you upset that a certain group dropped a series just before they were finished with it because of a license?
If you’re like me, you’ve probably done these things many times.
But that’s because I’m a fan of anime. Of course I would be like that.
Fansubbers, somewhere along the line, seem to usually forget that they are fans, doing it for fans. They’re subbing it because they had no one to ask “When will the next episode be out?” to, but if they did they would probably do the same.
As a fansubber and leecher, I understand both sides. If someone asks me “when will XXX be out?” I tell them when we plan to release it; if they want to know why it’s taking longer than usual I give them the exact reason why (nothing general or insulting like “lol, we have lives”); if there’s only a few epsiodes left I do my best to release them… and if it’s definitely impossible, I let them know clearly.
Bleh, there are quite a few other issues I would want to talk about, like how fansubbers like to be so secretive (In short, it’s because they like the leecher community to view them as perfect), and why they [including me] want to be the group that gets the most attention (If you’re doing to work, you want it to be seen by as many people as possible, right? I rarely watch more than one release of the same episode, and I doubt many other people do either), but I’m too lazy. Also, I’m starting to sound as if I think I’m as self-important as you probably think you are.
Maybe later.
-Anonymous
Why don’t the fan subber agree on some sort of convention in order to standardize soft subbing ( 25 KB files ) ? I believe, in reality, there are less than 5 version of raw floating around, and in Korea, the file sharing sites always lists the source of the raw and whether it has the sponsor screen in it or not. The Subtitle makers also announce which raw they are using when making the subtitle, and most makes one version with sponsors and the another without sponsors ( 2 subtitles, although it usually is that one has all the time shifted by a constant after certain time mark ). Most commonly used video player, the GOM Player and Adrenaline, has english version as well, and to load a subtitle, you right click on the screen, go to ‘open’ ior ’subtitle’ section, and when you ask it to open a subtitle, it asks you to pick one and opens a browse window for you. If these are too much bother, you can make them have same name like ABD.avi and ABD.smi, and when you open ABD.avi, it automatically opens ABD.smi as well unless you deliberately tell it to do something else. May I be bold enough to suggest that with little educations, probably less than a hour worth, to both the fan-subber and the casual anime downloaders, all these hostilities may go away? Afterall, doesn’t even the casual anime downloaders have to teach themselves about many different things in order to download an episode and view them? Or am I still hopeless lost about the state of English Fan-subs?
This is getting weird…
Posting in a legendary thread :P
>>So why, pray tell, are so many fansubbers such giant assholes most of the time? Why do they insist on reminding people to “not complain about something they got for free?”
Because you got it for free. No one pays for the time spent for the releases.
>>Why do they waste so much energy trashing the commercial anime industry - an industry that, for all basic purposes, is responsible for bringing anime fandom out of the shadows and into the mainstream? And why do fansub groupies bend over and take it with a smile? The moronic “Fansubs are better than DVDs!” talking point will never die, I fear.
You confuse two [almost] opposing groups who are involved in anime releases. Fansubbers and rippers. Fansubbers do their OWN translation, not rarely better than R1, plus they do many series which are NOT licenced per se, you wouldn’t be able to get R1 dvds for them whatsoever. Also, can you remind me the period of time it takes for R1 to appear after the series had been shown on japanese TV? One-two years, sometimes moar. R1 anime industry is lazy and doesnt’ pick many niche series which wont’ be commercially popular in the west.
N.B. Evil R1 anime industry, generally speaking, creates product intended for those who do prooly most horrific crime in anime — listen to the dub :)
So importance of fansubbers can’t be overestimated, though I belong entirely to the other block, i.e. plain rippers :) Bottom line is that fansubbers atm bring us moar anime, and much faster than official R1 industry.
Most groups in the scene are actually rippers, not fansubbers. Rippers do use R1 subs and in most cases R1 video (and dub audio, which is trash by definition :P) as well. I.E. most of them compete directly with R1. Fansubbers do not compete, they are ahead of the industy :P
As far as the question about standardizing subs… it probably won’t happen. Yes, there are 4-5 types of RAWs floating about, but given that they’re normally compresed very minimally, and the timing on them may be incredibly different, then you’re stuck either trying to mix-and-match the right SRT file with the right RAW file (and praying that enough people are seeding the RAW in question), or else you’re going to wait for some group to impose some order on the chaos by doing their own encode, compressing it to a decent size, and then putting their subs into it, either hard-subbed or soft-subbed the way Eclipse did Fate/Stay Night (which let you pick between English and Slovakian).
Guess which one I’ll wait for.
As far as the anime industry in R1, I have to say this - they pick what they think will sell, not necessarily stuff I’m interested in. This means there’s a whole shelf full of Gundam at the anime store, but stuff like H&C and Mushishi go unnoticed. One reason I do fansubs is to do what Japanese viewers get the honor of doing, which which people outside of Japan don’t normally get - the ability to watch a variety of series on broadcast TV before going out to buy the merchandise or DVDs.
Nice. I didn’t know that there were other people that hate fansubbing (or the fansubbing groups/community for a better term) as much as I do, if not more. Thank you, Jeff and DarkMirage. ;)
Yes, fansubbing is highly criminal in the US
No it’s not. Last time I checked there are no criminal provisions in regards to derivative works (what a fansub is) under 18 USC (the criminal code), and your standard copyright infringement action under 17 USC is purely civil. I might be wrong, of course. Pretty sure it also apply to reproduction, but that’s trickier. And that only applies to US law. Caveats, caveats.
FANSUBS ARE WAREZ
They can be. It depends on if people want to treat them like warez or not.
Congratulations.
Welcome to the internet?
One last round of cliches for Mentar: no good deed goes unpunished. Quit while you are ahead. Silence is golden.
By the way, folks… I’ve already had to delete a couple of abusive comments. I’m usually pretty flexible about this sort of thing, but if you pop in and make an ass out of yourself without adding anything to the discussion, your comment WILL be deleted. This is my blog, and those are my rules.
Here’s my two cents.
In Korea, nobody bothers making embedded subtitles. They download one raw and several subtitles and tyr each other out until they get a match. Usually, this process takes less than a minute per subtitle files using GOM Player as video player. If none happens to match, they either download another raw or manually edit the subtitle timing when they hear a mismatch: GOM Player has built in function that lets you shift the time sync in increments of 0.5 seconds. Usually, this needs to be done only once, and the time shifting process takes less than a minute. Bottomline is that the video watchers do the work of matching the subtitle to the raw they have and it is easy to do so.
In USA, for some reason, either it is hard to manipulate the subtitle files you have to get it synchronized with raw, or people seems to be mostly unaware of this possibility. If the capability is there, but is not used, someone should start teaching people how to taylor the subtitle files they can get to suit the raw they have. If it is difficulties through software itself, then they should try out English version of GOM Player or adrenalin player which has built in functions that let’s you edit, thus even create, a subtitle file by yourself. Here is one of the link I found for this
http://www.divx-digest.com/software/adrenalin.html
I really think all these hostilities can be resolved by trying out some new methods.
By the way, the latest version for adrenalin is ver. 2.1.9.12. I have successfully ran the latest version of GOM and Adrenalin in purely English Window XP SP2. Please take a note that I am not proposing something new, but just what is being done in Korea and probably China as well.
Maybe you should take a look at the fansubbing scene of J/K/C-Dramas. I suppose it’s quite similar to the korean fansubbers. There are many series being translated by “groups” consisting of 2 or 3 persons, who sometimes take years to finish one series. Still I’ve never seen the same problems as with the anime fansubbers. It might be because the groups aren’t competing with each other, most series only got one group subbing them and because the fans are used to slow releases, while anime fans are quite spoiled in that aspect. Probably the Drama-Fans are a bit more mature and are able to talk to each other politely. Also the Fansubbers will answer in a polite way. Maybe it will all change if the Drama fansubbing scene turns bigger, but so far everybody is friendly. But I also think that the majority of anime “leechers” and fansubbers are friendly and polite as well, it’s just because the scene is so big today, that there are of course also more people that behave in the way you described on both sides.
> wontaek
Actually, the most used codec pack (CCCP) accepts external subtitles right out of the box, so you don’t even need to install anything new - as long as your subtitle file is named same as the raw. Which will also make it easier to find “perfect timing match” - anyone who can search Internet will understand what file he needs when he’ll see name like “[l33t-raws]TOKKO_07_(640×352_120fps_x264).[CEE17D9B].srt” ;)
As for lack of seeders, well, raws are almost no different from fansubs in legal status, so you may as well distribute them on the same channels used for “fansubs”… and bring them down for the same reasons as fansubs. You can also reencode them and distribute “improved” version if you like, and still use external subtitles.
The way it’s done in current English fansub scene creates more “jobs” then it’s actually needed to simply “enjoy” anime. I’d consider that an artifact of the past. A lot of advances, while neat, are overrated (like karaoke importance, “extreme” typesetting, or rewriting signs). Plus that way jobs are “inseparable” from the team. In your case encoder and translator can be people that don’t even know each other - all you need is translator and timer (sometimes same person), and that will satisfy 99% of fansub watchers… ;) And role of raw provider is pushed to “consumer”, if you don’t want to bother with distribution - it becomes their problem, not yours.
>I really think all these hostilities can be resolved by trying out some new methods.
Actually, it wouldn’t. Nothing will change. These hostilities aren’t about some technical details, and never were. It’s all about people relations :)
Aww, that’s sweet :) … Well, three sayings back to Omo
- Preaching water yet drinking wine
- Hate the sinner, love the sin
- A German one: “Was schert es die deutsche Eiche, wenn ein Schwein sich an ihr kratzt”
No it’s not. Last time I checked there are no criminal provisions in regards to derivative works (what a fansub is) under 18 USC (the criminal code), and your standard copyright infringement action under 17 USC is purely civil. I might be wrong, of course. Pretty sure it also apply to reproduction, but that’s trickier. And that only applies to US law. Caveats, caveats.
Ah, my bad. I’m not a native speaker of English and didn’t understand you were making a distinction between criminal and civil cases. I just assumed “criminal” was equivalent with “illegal” (which fansubbing is).
wontaek: there are many drama subbing groups releasing softsubs. The simply put a note on their homepage which raw they used for the timing and all’s fine. Still the most groups want to do hardsubs so you can’t remove the credits and make changes etc, which is … well, not a very convincing reason. For animes I think the groups (and downloaders as well) simply care too much about the looks, the karaoke, the fonts and so on, because softsubs always look very simple. So that’s why there aren’t many groups doing softsubs for animes, at least that’s what I think ^^ errr, that’s pretty much the same thing that shalcker said in fact oO;
I’d like to respond to wontaec too because I’ve never really understood it either, however I think I now comprehend why (almost) every fansub is hardsubbed.
First off, there is no real REASON for not using external softsubs, apart from the fact that yes, softsubs are not as easy to handle as a hardsubbed video file. But really, it’s not that hard, and hey, are fansub watchers braindead monkeys? …
You could edit external subs in any way you want, and if there’s some error in the script that gets fixed later then all you need to do is download the new version of the script - that’s a few kB - instead of a v2 of the whole video file. Same thing if there are multiple groups doing one and the same series: you’d only need one raw, and all scripts, a lot less bandwidth wasted that way, and you could still get them all, compare, and keep what’s best. It would cause so much less traffic, but no one seems to care.
@minikui: you are wrong, softsubs don’t need to look very simple. You are probably thinking of srt subs or something similar. But if you use ssa/ass then softsubs can look just as good as hardsubs, or even better since there won’t be any compression artefacts on the text. Fonts would need to be distributed along with the subs, of course, unless you use standard windows fonts. Extensive karaoke can’t be rendered in realtime, but who cares for karaoke ?.. Nothing is lost if there are few, or no effects at all. As long as there is a japanese line, a romaji line and a line with translation during the OP&ED all is fine with me, and that is no problem if you use ssa/ass.
Basically you can sum the problem up like that: fansubbers are anal about there scripts.
They do not wish for every leecher to get his hands on those precious text files because they feel that it is the exclusive right of the fansubber to decide what happens with the script, because of the (sometimes more, sometimes less) enormous amount of work they put into it. They fear nothing more than someone taking the precious script, altering it, and using it for a different release. Pure horror
And it’s new, and everything that’s new is bad by default, just like h.264. Actually the softsub idea is not so new, I remember Kodocha as rm files with external subtitles .. It just looks a lot better nowadays, with styled ssa/ass softsubs.
Even the few softsub releases recently don’t have external subs, the subs are muxed into mkv. Better than hardsub of course, but what if I already have a raw and only want the subs ? I’d have to find someone to download for me and demux the subs for me. Then I’d notice that OP&ED were hardsubbed, even the translation parts which don’t need any uber effects at all. As I already mentioned. karaoke is not needed at all imo, so even kana and romaji lines could be soft, but that’s a different story :p It’s an improvement over hardsubs, all right. Just not yet completely perfect in my eyes. (this paragraph was dedicated to Mentar)
I don’t see why the fansub scene should move towards softsubs, and the mindless hordes of leeches that run for the first hardsubbed avi torrent they see because it works so good in their outdated vlc player aren’t helping either. Releasing both a hardsubbed Xvid avi and an .ass script would satisfy both the ignorants and those that don’t want to waste too much bw but well .. Massive (afx) karaoke for the e-penis, hardsubbed dialogue because that’s just the way it’s been done for ages, for copy protection purpose, or whatever excuse there might be… the situation just looks hopeless to me.
Jeff does the truth hurt…..Ya know the reason for your and every anime blog?
I heard one reason why softsub might be less preferrable: that it gives bootleggers an easier time to make their products. Not sure I buy it, but it’s possible.
IIRC, soon after when digisubbing first started, people were already using softsubs. It just never caught up for a variety of reasons including control issues with the script.
But ultimately the biggest reason is that too few people download raws to make a difference, and I think you don’t really have any incentive to care for soft or hardsubs otherwise.
To Mentar: Why use so many words when one word will suffice? Want some cheese along with that whine? Takes one to know one?
I will repost but kinder …will that work?
Why do you think this site and every other anime blogger site exist… don’t give me that they would be here without fansubs…. Would they all be blogging year old “just released in the states” anime… I don’t think so… I’ll say it now… what would be the point of all these anime blogs… so people could read about what to expect a year from now…if ever….I don’t thinks so…fansubber make bloggers necessary so we know what shows to look for and spend our time downloading…anything else is a lie….
ok let’s say, so far all softsubs I saw were looking simple ^^. And I also think that’s enough (even many official DVDs don’t have translation of OP/ED songs, let alone karaoke oO). It really is because the groups want to protect their scripts, but since hardsubs are being sold on ebay just like softsubs, it makes no difference, I think v.v (And maybe some really don’t know about ssa/ass, like me XD )
Our group is releasing softsubs (after arguing about it for a long time) for the simple matter of being faster and a hardsub version follows later on, since there are still people requesting it. So far it has been really useful because you always find some mistakes and then you can simply edit the file and people don’t have to download the whole video again. OK, anyway, this is kinda off-topic, sorry o.o;
DVD subs are very limited in their possibilities, so of course they look simple, and a bit ugly. But softsubs don’t have to look like that, and official DVDs not even having OP/ED song translation (karaoke is impossible, translation is not) is just laziness.
The way your group is handlng it seems to be very reasonable, congrats. What group is that and what are you subbing?
one more note about wontaek and his korean softsubs: with Korean subbers it seems to work, for several reasons: 1.) There are (probably) enough Koreans who speak a decent amount of japanese and work on subs. 2.) They don’t compete with each other like english subbers tend to do 3.) They work alone. A single person can be a lot more permissive about his work if he does all the work himself than he could be if he had to consider other group members too who have a say in whether or not to make something puplic. 4.) They don’t exactly spend much time on the subs, at least compared to decent english fansubbers. 2-3 hours .. that’s nothing.
In the english speaking scene, fansubbers value their work a lot more. Not just because they put a lot more working hours into it, but also because they get more credit/esteem/fame for it.
@omo: bootlegers can use whatever source they want. As long as there are people stupid enough to buy it, hardsubbing won’t stop them.
And yeah, the number of people downloading raws is probably still pretty low, at least compared to the fansub watching crowd, but that is no real problem. If there were scripts available, people would start leeching the raws of that series somewhere. You don’t even need winny/share for that nowadays.
I think the people attacking Jeff are mostly doing it because he linked to my blog. His post is trying to create a serious discussion, whereas mine was just a braindead rant until everyone started taking it too seriously and I reciprocated. It’s not fair to Jeff for you to vent your anger at me here. Thanks.
Personally I think fansubbers don’t use soft subs because they don’t see much benefits from doing so. Few people actually ask for them and there’s a good chance of them being used for bootlegs and used by other groups. Of course the real reason is that people want to be credited for their work.
Well omo, I think MT forum’s hardcore anti-fansubbing crowd (*cough* Link *cough*) has finally influenced me. Albeit 1 year late. j/k
@DarkMirage: You’re still a youngin’ compared to Mentar, myself or Jeff. One year later is no big deal. Consider yourself the head of your class, manage to talk up a storm about fansubbing and the perilous traps people falls into. Granted fansubbing is an easy topic to troll, but it’s a job well done :)
I think if we all take a giant, huge step back and look at the life of a fansubber (I think the oldest one I know has done it for almost 2 decades now), it really boils down to three “endings.” You do it seriously but eventually real life takes over; you do it and you get disillusioned, mired by drama, politics, or lack of motivation otherwise; or you quit and turn pro. If you don’t want any of these three things to happen to you, don’t fansub seriously.
Fimbulvetr: We’re a drama subbing group, right now doing Taiyou no Uta.
Maybe this discussion will be interesting over at d-addicts
“ranting about hardsubbing” (but forget what I said about drama fans being friendly XD )
http://www.d-addicts.com/forum/viewtopic_38668.htm
I’ll admit that, from a pure laziness standpoint, if I had a choice between a hardsubbed release and a softsub script/raw, I’d watch the hardsubbed release. However, if the group (or person) doing the softsub release can release more quickly by eliminating most of the overhead involved in production of a hardsubbed release, then, yeah, softsubs all the way. If you look at the guy doing the Simoun softsubs, he’s releasing scripts within a day or two of the episode airing in Japan. The scripts aren’t perfect (no time for QC, really), but they get the job done.
Of course, a lot of people won’t have any luck getting softsubs to work. I know what I’m doing, and yet even I used to have trouble getting the damn things to cooperate. So, you can probably imagine the sort of trouble the digital video neophyte would have. Spend some time in the troubleshooting forums at Animesuki, and you’ll start to wonder if the average fansub viewer even knows how to restart their computer.
Anyway, as for releasing scripts… I’m of the opinion that, if you’re ripping off and sharing other people’s work (and, yes, even if you’re doing a translation, you’re still translating someone else’s work), you should distribute it with as few strings attached as possible. It’s like people who scan images from artbooks, place them on their website, and then demand that you not steal from them by placing the images on your website. Hello? It’s not your property! If you don’t want other people touching it, don’t distribute it in public.
I can understand fansubbing groups not wanting their scripts snatched and used by “competing” groups while a show is airing, but I think you should at least release the scripts once all is said and done. I seriously doubt some group is going to come along after the fact and release the entire show using your script. And, even if they did, what’s the big deal? It’s not like your translation is some sort of original, copyrighted work. There’s no honor among thieves.