I’ve never cared much for discussing fansub politics. The topic usually sends me running for the hills. But, this got me thinking, so… here comes the hate mail.
First, let me lay a few things out…
I watch a lot of fansubs. I own about 300 anime DVDs, mostly R1, some R2. I own a small amount of character goods and other assorted memorabilia, most of which were purchased when I lived in Tokyo. I’m not the type to “collect” stuff, anime or otherwise. I’m neither rich nor poor.
So, why do I watch fansubs? Or, to be more specific, why do I watch anime episodes distributed illegally over the internet? Because, as an anime fan, I care more about the Japanese “scene” than I do the American “scene”. In other words, because I care most about what’s current, I watch what’s current. North American barbarian that I am, downloading anime episodes distributed illegally over the internet is pretty much my best and only option for keeping up with what’s current. Subtitles are an added bonus, of course, but if I only cared about translation, R1 DVD releases would suffice.
So, why do I buy DVDs? Or, to be more specific, why would I buy DVDs of shows already distributed illegally over the internet? The quality differential is important, obviously. Any person who claims “fansubs are better than DVDs!” is full of shit. But is that enough? Of course not. To address this issue, I consult my patented “Rewatch Rule”, which goes a little something like this…
“Will I ever want to watch this show again?”
OK, so it’s not very original. It sure as hell ain’t patented. What it means, however, is that my DVD collection is stocked with the shows I love - shows I watch again and again, until the ridiculous amount of money I spent on them no longer seems like such a big deal.
Of course, this also means I no longer waste time “collecting” fansubs. After all, if a show’s worth rewatching, I’ll buy it on DVD. If I plan on buying it on DVD, why save the fansubs? The only exception to the rule would be shows worth rewatching that stand little chance of being licensed for R1 release. That’s not a very common combination nowadays, however. If it’s good, chances are, it’s coming out on DVD… someday.
I’ll be honest… people who brag about the size of their DVD collections bug me. But that’s nothing compared to people who brag about the size of their fansub “collections”. You have 500 GB of fansubs? Umm…wow? You must have a lot of money to blow on hard drives. Or blank CDs. Good for you?
I don’t know about you, but I prefer to watch anime, not hoard it. Hoarding is for small rodents and people with obsessive-compulsive disorders.
“I don’t know about you, but I prefer to watch anime, not hoard it.”
So does that mean that most of your downloaded fansubs will be chucked away into the Recylcling Bin? Just curious.
For the truth, I agree fully with your statements. Worth the time to watch over and over again? It should be, otherwise you are better off renting it.
For me, the reason I’d watch fansubs are the same reason I’d rent a movie from Blockbuster or similar - because I want to see if it’s worth getting, and if I’ll enjoy it without spending the $400 or whatever required ahead of time buying individual volumes or waiting a year or two for the boxed set. If I like it, I buy it. If not.. then it gets trashed.
Sometimes, the reason I’ll download is because I know the series will NEVER make it to North American shores - it’s either too cult-like in its appeal, or else there’s something else about it that makes it unlikely to appear here. Honey & Clover is a show I suspect will never make it here, due to its ’slice of life’ style with an art school as the setting… but I could be wrong about this too, since Geneon’s got Ichigo Mashimaro coming this way.
I try to keep the files on my HD until the final episode has aired. Then, I make the call on whether to burn to DVD or delete. 95% of the time, it’s delete. The most recent shows I’ve kept, I think, are Honey & Clover and Air. To be honest, I figure both of those will be licensed eventually, but they’re such good shows that I didn’t want to take any chances.
If HD space gets to be a premium, however (which occasionally happens when I’m watching a lot of shows), I’ll start deleting episodes as I watch them. It’s not a particularly organized process. I have a “Download” folder that everything is dumped into, and subfolders for archiving individual shows, but I generally only go around deleting stuff when I notice space on that particular drive growing tight. I keep an overflow folder on a different drive for when I download giant batch torrents and the like.
I agree with this almost totally, with one exception. There are such things as fansubs that are better than DVDs. However, to my mind, this speaks volumes more about the DVDs than it does about the fansubs. For example, I point you towards Nadesico.
I absolutely covet my Nadesico fansubs. They predate the advent of digital subbing, so what I have is late-generation VHS-to-VHS copies. Obviously the visual quality is absolute shit compared to even the worst-mastered DVD, but the fansubs are and always will be superior for one simple reason: they haven’t been fucked with.
ADV, in their infinite wisdom, chose to overlay all the text on screen in Nadesico with poorly rendered english inserts. It looks like crap, and it subtly mucks up the flavor of the show. They also re-edited the first episode so that the opening sequence has been truncated and no longer flows properly. I understand that these are relatively minor issues that only the most hardcore fan would even notice, let alone care about, but that’s exactly the point.
Fansubs are geared towards fans. Hardcore fans. Even now DVDs are mysteriously geared towards “casual” fans or “mainstream” consumers. The simple fact is, I don’t want companies fucking with my shows. No matter what the increase in visual or audio quality, it just isn’t worth it. I would much rather have Rurouni Kenshin fansubs than Samurai X DVDs.
I’m not sure if I’d agree with the idea that fansubs are geared toward “hardcore” fans. Back in the days of VHS fansubs, yes, but in the age of digisubs? Probably not. Time spent perusing the Animesuki forums (or any online discussion forum where fansubs are regularly discussed) should provide evidence of that. Any anime fan with a fast internet connection and half a brain can (and in many cases, does) download and watch fansubs ’round the clock.
As for fansubs not being “fucked with”, I’d disagree. ADV’s poor treatment of Nadesico was indeed a shame. I haven’t found many fans who tolerate overlays in any way, shape, or form… except for diehard fansub proponents, that is.
Why? Because fansubbers overlay the shit out of things, that’s why. All those translated signs, labels, fansubber credits, flashy karaoke, translation notes, etc… for all basic purposes, they’re overlays. I don’t see that crap on modern DVD releases. Yet, the same people who act as if R1 studios are out to destroy their favorite shows give fansubbers a free pass. What gives?
I agree with Seiya’s point. I don’t like it when companies mess with the original video with crappy english overlays and stuff. It completely messes with the flavour of the show.
Pff, and I was going to make a “Is anime taking over YOUR hard drive?” poll, too. I even made a nifty pie chart from when my burner died and nearly 70% of my poor hard drive was anime… Oh well, I’ll still put it up. I actually think it is more shameful than an accomplishment since it means your poor hard drive is suffering. Once my burner was fixed, I burned those puppies right off. (Anime, not real puppies).
With that said, me being the sentimental person I am, I never throw ANYTHING away. I don’t know if it can be called “hoarding” or not, but I have a very hard time deleting anything or throwing anything away. I have a collection of receipts even though I am exempt from taxes, a collection of movie ticket stubs, every single piece of homework I have had since kindergarten, and every letter I have received since grade school. Does Saria have a problem? Most signs point to YES. I am obsessed with documentation, and I become attached to furniture and library books. So deleting fansubs, unless I truly do not care about the anime, is a big problem for me. Thus the 50 CD-Rs and 80GB of anime still on the burn list.
Along the lines of politics, I would probably be more open to purchasing anime if it didn’t cost the same amount as a plane ticket to somewhere I really want to visit. I also think having fansubs is a bigger reflection of being poor than cool. I’m sure if I had enough money to buy my favorite series, I would eventually give in and delete the fansubs.
And your rationale is true—How can us otaku keep up with the ongoing anime series released in Japan if we waited for the North American licenses and DVD distribution? Anime blogs would never be read! American otaku would set fire to buildings! The world would be thrown into chaos!
For those complaining about overlays on DVDs, start naming shows. I think you’ll have a difficult time coming up with many from the past few years… in other words, shows that were widely fansubbed beforehand. Now, show me a modern fansub release that isn’t cluttered with overlays and other assorted crap.
I’m not trying to be an asshole here, but this “fansubs are pure!” argument is a zombie in need of a lobotomy.
The overlaying doesn’t happen too much now. Looking back at what I previously said seems a bit extreme. Now-a-days, when text is overlayed, it’s usually credits. This still bothers be a little (only when it’s poorly done). I would really like it if companies had different video clips that corrispond to the choice of audio. For instance, if someone chose the Japanese track, they’d get the original Japanese credits and if someone choose the American track, they’d get the translated credits. FUNimation does this well, I really wish more companies would do this.
I really don’t like the overlaying done in fanaubs, espcially their karaokes. I guess when it comes right down to it, I’d just like to watch anime raw. But I am not really in a position to do that now…
A lot of DVDs have the original credits as well as textless credits as extras.
A lot of times, they aren’t allowed to do so in the show itself due to licensing issues, for example, some seiyuu do not allow their names to be attributed to a character in the R1 release. I have no clue why, but that was the response I got many moons ago when I asked, “Why are the Japanese names grouped in a bunch and not broken down by role?” at AoD’s forums.
ADVs “Essential Anime” rerelease of Nadesico - sans overlays - was pretty good, and shows how the market has come along in the last couple of years. Its just a shame the disks are out of print now.
As for why people give fansubbers a free pass with some of the crap they pull, well, its more often than not people who are either trying to justify getting all this stuff for free to themselves, or are just plain thick. I’ve given up caring about those who feel the need to nitpick everything about an R1 release even if they’ve never seen it (the arguments what broke out over ADVs decision to translate character names in Princess Tutu made me want to hit things, preferrably with a very big stick). No one is going to change their mind, so I’m not going to waste my time on it.
I totally agree with your point about caring more about the Japanese market than the Western one - as a merchandise hoarder, if I didn’t keep up with whats airing in Japan all the really cool crap would be impossible to get by the time I did seem them ^^;
I personally hoard. It isn’t because I cannot let go of a series, but because I’m usually not watching what I’ve downloaded until the series has finished out. Download, burn to disc, put aside for a rainy day. Anything I like I buy the DVDs for if they’re ever released.
The only exception to this that I can think of is Air Master, which had a DVD release that was worse than subpar. The fact that they discontinued releasing it halfway through the show didn’t help, either.
RahXephon had overlaid english text over the original Japanese credits in the first episode. ADV fuzzed out the Japanese and put the translated credits over it. For the most part it worked, until the credits went over something, then it looked pretty stupid.
I really don’t understand when fansubbers go for super high quality, when in reality you don’t get paid to do it. Especially when I don’t have to pay for it myself anyway. Now we’ve got groups releasing 1080p versions of shows, that you need a Beowulf cluster to play properly. Honestly, I’d rather get the gist of the show rather than love and caress the show forever on my LCD. This coming from a guy who watched the fansub of Kimagure Orange Road to death, and enjoying the fansubber’s complaints at the end of the episodes. (I date myself with that reference)
I kinda miss those days. Pretty karaoke makes my processor hot, H264 isn’t even an option on my stinky old computers (first person to tell me to upgrade gets slapped with a wet noodle). Karoke can be fine with a simple color change, now I’ve got flying romaji that comes in after the word was said. What good does that do?
I have trouble with some H.264 encodes as well, as the machine I use for fansub playback is powered by a “mere” P4 1.3GHz. Granted, I’ll probably be replacing it with a more powerful, dedicated machine (in a Shuttle case) soon, as my office and “viewing room” in the new house are no longer one in the same. For now, though, I just plan to run some long cables (the rooms are adjacent).
Of course, on a TV, even bad encodes look good. From 10 feet away, I can’t see much difference between XviD encodes and H.264 encodes.
You have 500 GB of fansubs? Umm…wow? You must have a lot of money to blow on hard drives. Or blank CDs. Good for you?
500GB / 4GB = 125 blank DVD’s.
25 blank DVD’s cost only $9.99 CAD here.
so… that’s less than $50 CAD in total for the 500GB… exactly one month allowance of mine. (and I only own about 300GB of anime/manga, while probably only 100GB of them are what I actually have watched and rewatched. *shrugs*)
And usually if I like a series I buy the manga instead (if available) since it’s much, much cheaper and I can have less days packing my own sandwich lunch and have some HOT lunch at school instead. If I have the money I would be more obsessed with the DVD quality but I don’t… so too bad so sad.
I think I have less than 10 anime DVD and about 20 anime VCD (yes, they are super old)…
I will admit that overlays have pretty much gone the way of the dodo in recent years, but I only bring them up as the most extreme example of the difference in attitudes that remains between most american distribution companies and any fansubbing group worth mentioning. Namely, the outright disdain for a show’s origins and nuances in the name of reaching a theoretically larger audience. Fansubbers may be playing to a similarly increased audience, but regardless of who is actually watching them, it’s hard for me to imagine a fansubber sitting in a basement somewhere with an irate editor looking over his shoulder going “Kids aren’t going to understand ’sempai’! Change it! Change it now!”. My argument is really that in many cases, fansubbers still show more respect for their audience, with an overall more nuanced and accurate translation as well as more expansive liner notes.
Obviously, this is not always true and you could certainly dredge up some really atrocious Naruto speedsubs that are worse than any DVD I could find. However this illustrates another benefit of fansub culture. If you don’t like the way a group is handling a show you like, there might well be another group doing it too. If a studio you hate picks up your favorite show, you’re just plain old out of luck.
USA releases have come a long way in a short time, and the philosophies of american anime companies have definitely improved by leaps and bounds. I can certainly attest to the fact that I am now spending proportionately more on domestic releases because of this, good behavior will be rewarded. There are now no shortage of amazing quality DVDs, and there are still a flood of horrendous fansubs. Nonetheless, I still say that your attitude that NO fansub could ever be better than ANY DVD release is just laughable.
Fansubbers may be playing to a similarly increased audience, but regardless of who is actually watching them, it’s hard for me to imagine a fansubber sitting in a basement somewhere with an irate editor looking over his shoulder going “Kids aren’t going to understand ’sempai’! Change it! Change it now!”.
I have had friends IM me while watching fansubs to ask things like “which one is ‘itadakimasu’ and which one is ‘ittekimasu’ again?” or “what’s the difference between ‘oniisan’ and ‘oneesan’?” or “is the sempai or the kouhai the senior?”
And yeah seriously, I can’t stand those h.264 encodes. My P4 really has trouble running those. When I dl’ed Ergo Proxy 1 to revel in its HDTV glory, my computer just kept seizing up. Frownz.
I wonder if “fansubs are authentic!” comes out the “if it’s raw, it’s authentic” way of thinking.
(Man, I was sooooo freakin’ happy when I finally managed to track down the Essential Anime Nadesico DVDs)
Fansubbers may be playing to a similarly increased audience, but regardless of who is actually watching them, it’s hard for me to imagine a fansubber sitting in a basement somewhere with an irate editor looking over his shoulder going “Kids aren’t going to understand ’sempai’! Change it! Change it now!”.
I, for the record, despise “untranslation” in fansubs.
Translation is not a process or contest of measuring who can leave in the most original language words in, or otherwise get the most “accurate” end result by translating things word-for-word, ending up with a text output no native speaker of the target language would ever conceive up in their day-to-day speak.
Translation is a process where you should try to convey the same idea in the target language in an as natural way as possible for that language.
And yes, sometimes this requires rewrites and changes on different levels for the same or similar idea to come across - This should not be a problem on any level as long as the basic idea and message of the translated output is still the same. And yes, sometimes there is the odd thing that can be considered “untranslatable” - That is the nature of different languages, and something you just will have to live with, sans learning the original language.
A good translation is indistinguishable from the fact that it actually is a translation and not something originally written in that language.
If the purist in you wants the “sempais” and “ittadakkimasus”, it’s time for him to start learning Japanese and enjoy the whole anime ordeal as “originally intended” - I mean, surely the little squiggly things at the bottom of the screen vaguely resembling a bastardized form of a foreign language is getting in the way to enjoy the show as its creators had originally intended?
My argument is really that in many cases, fansubbers still show more respect for their audience, with an overall more nuanced and accurate translation as well as more expansive liner notes.
More accurate? Since when and what day?
More pandering? Why, certainly yes.
I don’t know about you, but I prefer my English, to be just that - English.
As for liner notes, it’s quite a double-edged sword - Good ones are always appriciated, but those are few and far between in my expereince (this goes actually often hand-in-hand with the “untranslations”).
Again, I don’t know about others, but I don’t need to be explained for the 23235535th what ittadakimasu means - If I really, really need or want to know, I can look that up myself.